Joe Brazil Interviews Hilliard Brazil

From Ancestry.com I learn that Joe Brazil was born in Detroit, Michigan on August 25, 1927 to Ida M. Hill and Hilliard Brazil. Ida was 19, twelve years younger than Hilliard and they had married eight months earlier in Laurens County, Georgia – cotton country mid-way between Atlanta and Savanah. Their first son, Zodis, had been born May 6, 1924.

The land surrounding Laurens County had been inhabited by the Creek Indians for thousands of years. The Oconee River wanders southeast toward the Atlantic Ocean, through flat fertile soil and abundant loblolly pine forests. The early American settlers were descended from English, Scottish, and Irish. By 1850, after the pine had been cleared, cotton plantations dominated this upper coastal plain. Forty-five percent of the population were slaves. Most slaves in Laurens County were from Angola, a Portuguese colony involved in the slave trade with Brazil. Joe's great grandparents had been slaves.

Many slaves took the surnames of their owners. According to census records and deeds, a plantation owner in Laurens County, Georgia during the Civil War was named Willis Breazeal, son of Henry Willis Breazeal who established a plantation in the late 1700s. Perhaps Joe's family name came from this plantation.

In 1911, Laurens County produced 31 million pounds of cotton, some of it no doubt picked by Joe's ancestors. But the economy collapsed when a boll weevil infestation began decimating harvests in 1919, fueling a mass migration of black farmers to jobs in northern cities. The story of Joe's parents is part of this major shift in American demographics, economics, and culture.

Railroads to the nearby county seat of Dublin had provided explosive growth in Laurens County, and would eventually be the conduit for black exodus. The Vidalia Route on the Macon, Dublin, and Savannah Railroad was built in 1891, four years before Hilliard was born, with a stop in Montrose, pronounced “Mont Rose” by residents, a tiny town so puny and poor that even today it lacks a public sewer system. While Hilliard was growing up and working in the cotton fields with his father, Charlie, he would have heard whistles from the two steam trains that ran the 54-mile route north in the morning and south in the evening. One day in 1927, the Brazil family would get a one-way ticket on the north bound run.

April 7, 1978

Hilliard Brazil

[tape counter 36:47]

Joe Brazil: Hit it. And so it's recording now.

Hilliard Brazil: Uh huh

JB: You see that little needle jumping right here.

HB: Yeah, yeah.

JB: It's recording right now. 

HB: Ok.

JB: I can look at this number and say its at...

HB: It takes smart people to operate them. And the guy that made it...

JB: Oh, my goodness.

HB: Oh, boy. Now he was something else.

JB: Yeah, right. He was really thinking. And they keep improving them you know.

HB: Yeah.

JB: Each year their doing something to them.

JB: I don't really have, I haven't thought of nothing to ask directly. You know it's just a basic want to try and trace our family tree. We've talked about it sometimes. I know you remember a lot of things and perhaps on both sides of the family, the Brazil side, and the Hill side, especially from Georgia. So maybe we can just start with where you were born at specifically and maybe dates and that kind of thing.

HB: I was born in Georgia, in Montrose. A town there. I was actually born two miles out from the school. There was a railroad station there. A train stop, post office, and what have you. We called it a town. But I was born two miles out in the country from that. I guess they still call a little place marker, but there ain't nothing left there. The old houses, old store that was there. There wasn't but, I believe, four. And none of them is operating. And some of them part. Not all of them whole. Part of the whole is down. Fallen down. Pushed down or something. 

JB: What was that date? Date of birth?

HB: I don't know when that took place.

JB: No. Your birth date.

HB: My birth date? Oh, my birth date is back in the 1800s. I was born 1895. I was born five years before 1900 came in.

JB: Yeah. Do you remember the exact date? What was the day and the month?

HB: September 6th.

JB: Oh, September 6th?

HB: Yes. I was born 1895, September 6th.

JB: So you're under the sign of Virgo, then.

HB: Huh?

JB: I'm a Virgo, too. Well you see that's during the year, they chop the year into twelve different parts and from August the 23rd to September the 23rd, something like that is Virgo.

HB: What you call that Vego?

JB: Virgo - V-i-r-g-o. Everybody's got some sort of sign. It's an astrology sign. I didn't realize you were the same sign I am. We are the same sign. My brother is Taurus.

HB: Is what?

JB: Taurus. He was born in May.

HB: Who?

JB: Brother.

HB: Brother.

JB: Right.

HB: And his is?

JB: It's called Taurus. It's May the 6th. So everybody's got...that's just something that people look at...

HB: Well it's nice for them to find out all that. But I seen a card, you know they've got an attractive way of writing it on the windows or what have you. I couldn't even pronounce a lot of it but I seen those kind of signs. That's what you're talking about.

JB: So you're September the 6th in 1895 out of Montrose, Georgia. 

HB: What's that?

JB: You said September the 6, 1895 right outside of Montrose, Georgia. Right near Montrose, Georgia. Within two miles you say.

HB: Mont...

JB: Montrose. Didn't you say Montrose?

HB: I don't know what that means. I can't understand anyway.

JB: Oh! Didn't you say right in Georgia where you was born.

HB: Yeah. Georgia.

JB: But you said it was Montrose, Georgia.

HB: Mont-rose. Yeah, Mont-rose.

JB: Oh, Mont-rose

HB: M-o-n-t-r-o-s-e

JB: I was saying Montrose.

HB: Mont-rose.

JB: Mont-rose.

HB: Mont-rose, Georgia. That was our post office. We lived out on, kind of slipped up on Route 2. I believe it was 24. I believe our box was 24. I believe. But it was Route 2, box 24, I believe. Mail carrier brought our mail out on Monday.

JB: Now what was your parents' names?

HB: My father's name was Charlie Brazil.

JB: That's my grandfather.

HB: Yeah. That's right. I got a picture... And my mother was named Mary Lou Brazil. Now I don't guess I got a picture of my mother. But I don't know of her picture being made at all itself. Once my sisters, she...My mother passed already and Queen had decided to make a picture of her passing. Well, I don't know if I have that. But my father, he was kind of, I don't know if you call it keen or what, but he was kind of deep into things. You know I made pictures when I was...

JB: You were into photography yourself.

Chicago Ferrotype ad 1915

HB: I made pictures when I was in teenage and coming up I guess around 18, well I understood and made them even after that. In fact did have that kind of experience. When I was dead into it, a country boy, I was, I made some money at it. And that all come in I'd say between the age of, to cover it good I'd say 14, no, maybe less than that. But I'll say 14 to 18 years. About 4 or 5 years. Maybe 14 to 20 years maybe. But I was making some here and there. When I was on the farm, I bought a bicycle. Paid twelve dollars for it. It was shot. But I was keen on repairing things so I could keep the old bike running. And I build a little shelf on back big enough for my camera. A little more, a little extra space and I bolted down, punched a hole through two oyster cans. You know, the oysters you buy in a can something like pork and beans. Well that can would, with the top cut out, I made my own developer. I would seal it up in a beer bottle. You know with a beer bottle, you pull the cap off and you can snap it on and all that. Well, I had bantu caps [bantu is millet beer from West Africa and the majority of slaves in Laurens County were from Angola, a Portuguese colony involved in the slave trade with Brazil], I don't know why, I guess we had a beer or something like that. So we had drank the cap and keep, even with the second hand, it would seal it up good. It wasn't necessary to seal it so tight anyway. But ah, that beer bottle would fit snug in that can. So I made a whole in the center of the can, put a bolt in it, bolted it right down on each back corner of that shelf on that bicycle. And the camera, it was a little long, not quite as wide as that machine there and I just put it on its side. And I'd set it on that and I would fasten it, you know, substantially. And I made myself a background that would fold up. Now you know if I had some place to make pictures, no background or walls or something for people to stand in front of, nothing. That was something I made at home. But I bought the canvas and made it to fit.

JB: Yeah. That's way ahead of the time because they're doing almost the exact same thing today. In places like some big department store, they go and take your picture there, put a little background there. If you want a tree scene or you want a sunset or whatever. You just got a little picture there. And you were doing that.

HB: Yeah, that's right. I made that and I'd frame it. I'd fold it up and roll it up and put it across the handlebars in front. And I had all my stuff. Packing up the bike I could go seventeen miles up or down to the railroad, I go out in the country anywhere.

JB: So a lot of people wanted that service. I guess a lot of people wanted pictures taken.

HB: Oh, yeah. I made... you know the country's not heavily populated out of the city. There's a house here and there and then you get a bunch of people together you got to get people from all over. And I'd go up seventeen miles to Jeffersonville. I'd make thirty-five dollars. I remember going on up there ah, I think it was the fourth Sunday in September. I never, I don't remember going up there and making less than thirty-five dollars.

JB: Son of a gun. That was good.

HB: Thirty-five dollars was a lot of money in the country because people at that time was working for fifty cents a day. I'd go on my bike and make thirty-five dollars rain or shine. You know if it rained, it would have to, well it didn't happen, but it would have to rain continuously all day and keep people close to the machine. Because if it rained in the morning, they would cut out and the show go on in the afternoon but I'd make that thirty-five dollars like that. I'd only have two hours anyway. Wait for it after that. Because...

JB: How much did you charge for each picture?

HB: Well, I'd start of at a dime or whatever, a quarter.

JB: And you made that much money off of that. You made a whole lot of picture then, huh? To make that thirty-five dollars you'd have to make about fifty or a hundred.

HB: Oh yeah. I made, I don't know how many I made. But ah, it was, we use to do, because, sometimes whether it was the morning or afternoon, and the reason I said I did it in half days, I guess it wouldn't be over an hour, hour and a half at the most because I was located between the church and the railroad station. And everybody would come on the train. But if he was at the buggy they would find out were I was and cut out to get a picture made. But ah, people were going when they leave the train or depot, or any direction, going to the church, they weren't too much concerned about.

JB: Oh, I see.

HB: But when they leave, going away, then that's the time everyone wanted the picture made. Well, you see, it wasn't too long before all the people going to church would be passed anyhow. But that's the time actually it took, maybe a little more, for me to make that money. But the machine I had, it was a one minute machine so I had two sections in the cup in the back where I developed the pictures. And it took them a minute to develop. I'd drop them in there, maybe, if I had nothing in there I'd maybe make, depending on the crowd, maybe four, five, maybe half a dozen. And then I'd turn that thing around and start putting in the other section. You know it revolved around. Like after one section, you revolve it around and put in the other section where you drop it in there. Well the minute it required for those to develop, it was back there developing, you know, so then I'd make pictures for least a minute or maybe a minute and a half.

JB: And then you would just take them out.

HB: Oh I took them. By then I would have the bottle filled anyway. But THESE would be developed. By the time I deliver all of them, the ones over there would be developing. I'd turn around and take them out and deliver them and then I got to get one again, and put in maybe a few here, turn around and set it up like that.

JB: Production line going.

HB: Yeah. Well I was the only one on production. You know, I worked it out. So anyway, ah, on the third, I believe it was the third or fourth Sunday, whatever it was, I made thirty-five dollars. And I had a pretty good experience on that because ah, I ah, would write to, if on the back of the magazine at that time under, through all, under every page, because I had time on my hands anyway. So if there was something of interest I would check on that and it would turn out to be this picture machine with the most interesting thing I ever saw in a magazine.

JB: Oh, I see. So you ordered it.

HB: Yeah, well, what made it interesting, I wanted to make some money. And I saw, must have been Jim Turling or somebody, a picture man come from a little town, maybe, might have been, if it was Jim Turling, he come from Dublin, and he was standing behind the tripod, three-legged you know, and making them dimes. That's what it took to make them dimes. That's what I liked. Well, I was too bashful to ask the man, could any of them make them from him how to get that machine. I didn't know how to get it. I just saw this man doing it. That's all. That's as far as I got. So ah, looking through the magazine I saw a picture of a guy standing behind looked something just like, I said, "This is it." And I, I don't know, I must have saw it for a while before I was able to do anything about it because my money was hard to come by. And ah, but I kept wanting until that one day there was one advertised for six dollars. It was the small one, it was, oh a little square box, you know, a little box but it was small. But it was for six dollars. And ah, they said you could pay it on an installment plan. So that was right down my alley. So I wrote for one. And waited for a week. It took you a week to get a reply. I wrote for one and waited for a week and it didn't show. So I wrote for another. I waited another week and it didn't show. So I put in an order for another one. Three of them. By that time, things started coming.

JB: Oh, all of them started coming.

HB: The third of them didn't come but the second one did. But I took this album from the first one and I would read, well I had read and found out what I had found out, but the important stuff I didn't. Such as the instruction how to operate it. I read up and found out it had six, the possibility of making six pictures come with the set. And if you understand you can make the six. But it was my first affair so I had to count to see if the guy was cheating me. So I counted the cards. And that meant I took them out of there in the light. And that's silly. They wouldn't make a picture. You couldn't expose them to light because...

JB: Right, right.

HB: So ah, then I realized, "Oh, that's why I ruined them."

JB: Yeah, I want to...

Montrose lower left, Millville upper right

HB: So when the next one came, I took it out and I made them six without any trouble. And I took that, I don't know what happened to the one, that first one, or whatever one that was, but I had two on my hand at that time. So I took and ah, went over to Millville [1681 Millville Church Rd, Dublin, GA 31021], that's a church, and I was making pictures here and there with that little machine. And on the other side of the church ground there was Jim Turley. He had one of them big deals over there making pictures. So, I don't know about the big deal. All I know is what I got, this little stuff. But I wanted one of them big ones like what he got. So I sneaked over there and, you know, he was alright. He wasn't paying attention. But I thought I was sneaking. I thought I was stealing something. 

JB: Ha, ha, he was enjoying himself.

HB: So I went over there an looked all over his machine to see what was the trademark. Who made it.

JB: Yeah.

HB: And it had the same name as what mine had, Chicago Ferrotype Company. 

JB: He had a bigger one that yours.

HB: So I came home. I was paying or whatever it was. It wasn't but a little while past, anyhow. I think it was a dollar a week or a dollar a month or something. I would send it to them. But this one, it was much more, it cost, it looked like a monster to me. It cost forty five dollars I believe.

JB: Hmm.

HB: I believe that big one cost forty five dollars. Or near fifty dollars.

JB: That was a lot of money at that period.

HB: Oh boy. That was a lot of money for me. I didn't have no part of that. So I, um, saw it was from Chicago Ferrotype. So I goes home and write a, you know, a business letter to the Chicago Ferrotype Company for one of them, you know. Well they sent me their magazine, sent me a whole lot of stuff. They sent me all of their advertising papers, you know, showing all the different kinds. Yeah, I don't know what that thing cost. It may... yeah it must have been about forty five dollars. Anyway, this was one, or like it was about the most expensive one they had on it. And I wrote them a letter and told them that, ah, I could pay them, I think it was fifteen dollars down. And so much per month or something. And they fell for it. But the important part about it, I never did pay over fifteen dollars for it. That's all it cost me for the whole time. That's all that big machine cost me.

JB: Oh. So they never did collect the rest of it.

HB: Never did. Now here's how that come about. I simply didn't have to send anything. You're supposed to pay fifteen dollars at the post office when it arrives. So it arrived and they had one. And they filled the little deal within that. And zero's condemning them on that whatever that typewriter or adding machine or whatever it was, condemning them. And Clem Williams was the postmaster, he was running that store, cause they had, the post office was on the grocery store, they sold stuff and had a post office in their store. And Clem Williams operated Mr. Williams store, his daddy's store. So Clem thought it was, right here, a dollar and a half. He didn't see. He thought it was...

JB: Oh, oh, oh.

HB: He didn't understand. He thought it was a dollar and a half.

JB: Oh, I see.

HB: So that's what it cost me. A dollar and a half. I didn't even pay the fifteen dollars.

JB: Ha, ha, ha.

HB: I paid a dollar and a half and got that big machine now, well. I knew I was poor. I had money. I had fifteen dollars but I didn't wake them up because...

JB: Right.

HB: I wasn't supposed to know anything.

JB: Right.

Modern ferrotype developer

HB: So uh, I took that thing home. I said, now here's the part that's bad off as if I called that guy's attention to it because, I want to make the developer. Make my own developer. They would send it already made, but you could buy hydrochinon and different kind of ingredients and mix it up. And it was really better because for instance it was some of that ingredient, if you add a little more it would make it more brilliant.

JB: Ah.

HB: It would refine the picture. Well I learned all that secret too.

JB: Oh, yeah.

HB: So I bought this in pieces and made my own developer. Well, and on top of that, and naturally, I would need more cards or more picture materials.

JB: Right, right.

HB: Well I had to contact the company again and I figured they would find that out that they didn't get but a dollar and a half for the whole grip and boy it was, I had a bunch to lose. Cardboard boxes, this and that, and different boxes you know. And plus with that tripod, the machine and the other supplies and stuff that went with it. So uh, I said, "They going to, got to find out." But I sent back and I bought developer from them, that mix you know that gets greener, made that developer and bought more products from them and they never knew. So I got that machine for a dollar and a half because the figures were faded more and more...

JB: Faded right there.

HB: I guess they needed a new tape on the typewriter or something. But that's the one...

JB: You really wanted and you got it for the price. That was really a break.

HB: Yeah, so, I kept, I don't know what happened to it because I got out of it. I go up to Atlanta and went to work there. That's where I wish that machine, I don't know what happened. Somebody must have stole it. Well since as much as I wasn't using it, it was there in the house or about the house somewhere.

JB: I see.

HB: And I didn't check on it every day.

JB: Yeah, right.

HB: Well I don't know when, or anything about its disappearance. It's just gone.

JB: You came home late, it went on late. Anyway. Getting back to the family, you had what, four or five sisters and brothers. 

HB: Well uh, how many are all dead and alive, I have twelve.

JB: Twelve sisters and brothers.

HB: Yeah.

JB: Do you recall...

HB: I don't know their names, maybe one of the brothers named Little B. Senior, but they all died young.

JB: Oh I see.

HB: They all died.

JB: As many of the names you can think of and maybe just when they were born. 

HB: Who is that?

JB: All the sisters and brothers. As many of the names you can think of.

HB: Yeah, well, if I can really, well I would say would be my... before.

JB: Yeah, right.

HB: Because I remember them.

JB: Right, yeah.

HB: One was named Queen. Queen Victoria Brazil at that time when she was born. And I was next to her a year.

JB: Oh she was older.

HB: Yeah. She was the oldest.

JB: Do you remember what her birthday was? You don't when her birthday was, huh? 

HB: Huh?

JB: Recall when her birthday was? Aunt Queen's birthday. Do you know when Aunt Queen's birthday was?

HB: Yeah. April 8th. 

JB: April 8th. That's tomorrow.

HB: Yeah. April 8th.

JB: Or today. No, tomorrow. Tomorrow's April 8th.

HB: Yeah. Today is the...

JB: 7th

HB: 7th. No. The 7th.

JB: Yeah. Today's the 7th.

HB: Yeah. Today's the 7th. Tomorrow's the 8th.

JB: Probably remember the date, 18...

HB: 1890... I think Queen's birthday was 1893.

JB: So she was about 2 or 3 years older. She wasn't too much older. I'd say it's about a couple of years.

HB: She was about 2 years older than I was.

JB: Oh, I see.

HB: I'm not sure about that but I ain't never remember anything like what in 1894. But it was, I think, 1893.

JB: Now Mose was after you.

HB: Mose. Yeah. I'm nine years and twenty days older than him so you can figure whatever date that was. In fact he was born... I don't know exactly. But nine years and twenty days younger than I.

JB: Oh, nine years and twenty days, huh?

HB: Yeah. Nine years and twenty days younger than I am.

JB: Let's see. So your birthday is the 6th. So he was born in August then.

HB: Well he was born... Wait a minute.

JB: Yeah, see it was twenty days.

HB: Yeah our birthdays were about the same.

JB: Yeah, so twenty days earlier, that would have to be back in August. Because your September 6th. You take six days off of that. Takes you back to August. And then you take seventeen days after that. Let's see. The thirty first and seventeen is four. That seems like August fourteenth to me.

HB: I don't know about that.

JB: You said nine years and twenty days.

HB: Nine years.

JB: So if you take the nine years off and you say, well you add nine years to it, so adding nine years really makes it younger. You know. So that makes him two, 1902.

HB: I think he was born in 1904.

JB: 1904.

HB: I was born in 1895. He was born 1904. Nine years. From 1895 to 18... From 1895 to 1904.

JB: You're right. You're right. 1904. You're right. 1904. You're exactly right. Ok so yeah, he's 1904 and August the 14th.

HB: No. 

JB: That's twenty...

HB: Seems like his birthday is in September.

JB: Hmm. Maybe it's twenty days the other way then. Maybe it's the 26th.

HB: I don't know why I had twenty days.

JB: Younger.

HB: Ok. He nine years. I guess what it is... I maybe...

JB: See he was, he would have to be September the 26th. Which would be twenty days that way.

HB: That's right.

JB: Or it would have to be August 14th, twenty days the other way.

HB: Uh. Yeah. I think it's something like my birthday but, you know, twenty days...

JB: So it's probably, yeah, probably September 26th.

HB: Yeah. I'm getting to where I can't remember.

JB: Yeah. That's a memory now.

HB: I'm filled up with don't know how many different things. 

JB: Yeah. Right. Your main mind is busy trying to get that trip and everything going too. The other sister's Baby Girl, right.

HB: That's right.

JB: But what was her name?

HB: I don't know, I don't know anything about Baby's birthday.

JB: But you know her actual name is not Baby though is it.

HB: No. Her name is Mary Lou.

JB: Yeah, Mary Lou. Right.

HB: Same as her mother.

JB: Oh. Same as her mother's name.

HB: Yeah. My mother's name. In fact, between me and baby girl we lost a lot of my sisters and brothers. They died at a fairly young age. They was born but that's all.

JB: Maybe we ought to find out....

HB: They wasn't old enough for them to name them, give them a name.

JB: Right.

HB: Because they, you know, they tried different things and my father and mother was ah, devout, they was really religious. So they thought of everything. So they said maybe we're naming them too late. So they didn't name, they quit naming them.

JB: Because they thought that might have caused it.

HB: Yeah. And Baby Girl was born. So they didn't give her a name. And she lived until she got old enough to give her own self a name.

JB: Oh. She named herself?

HB: She named herself.

JB: That's interesting.

HB: Because, you know, and so she called her her mother's name so she named herself right after her mother. That's how that come about.

JB: Interesting, yeah. So she should be quite a bit younger than, ah so, if she's born after Mose was in 1904, so...

HB: Well, baby was older than Mose.

JB: Oh, she's older than Mose.

HB: Yeah. Baby Girl...

JB: Oh. I thought she was younger.

HB: She's younger than I am but she's older than my brother.

JB: Oh, I see. There were a lot of, lot of bothers in between there.

HB: More. There was Queen, myself, Baby Girl, and Mose.

JB: Oh. So Mose is youngest.

HB: That's right.

JB: Oh. I see. So Baby Girl would have to be somewhere in between there then.

HB: That's right.

JB: So she's probably around either 1900 or 1899. Something like that.

HB: I don't really know.

JB: Right around there, sure.

HB: And I talked to her here not too long ago but I wasn't thinking in terms of this at all. So I... in fact I never did. If I did, I forgot.

JB: And she lived, she's still living in Atlanta.

HB: She's still in Atlanta.

JB: I think I've got her... I'm sure I've got her main address.

HB: 236.

JB: Oh that's her address? 236.

HB: Mary Cantrell.

JB: That's her married name now.

HB: Yeah. That's her married name. She was named Mary Lou Brazil to start with. Yeah. 236 Holly Road.

JB: Yeah, right. I've been there. And that's in Atlanta. What was her phone number?

HB: Yeah, you know your going to go there a long answer for you that's 1-404...

JB: Oh. That's zip code 404. Oh, I mean area code.

HB: Well the area code would be 404.

JB: Yeah, right.

HB: And that, you know, you got to... You know what... And it's xxx-xxxx.

Ida [Hill] Brazil

JB: Ok, well. Now back to kind of, Atlanta, Georgia, do you recall when you first met momma, Ida? Do you remember when you all first...

HB: Let's see. We was in Atlanta. Well I've been knowing her all her life.

JB: Right.

HB: She lived in Montrose, too. Out there in the county.

JB: Oh, I see. That was in Montrose too.

HB: Yeah. I've been knowing her...

JB: Well they came... She was born in Twiggs County, where ever that is.

HB: What?

JB: Was she born, in like, Twiggs County or something. I don't know what that is. Twiggs.

HB: Now I don't know if, I know, I don't know. But Mr. Hill moved... I can't [unintelligible] too good for her... He was an older... He was an older, and, and, that's how the judge and my father was.

JB: Oh, I see.

HB: And he might got caught from Twiggs County. But that's a little too deep for me.

JB: Yeah. Right. There's a couple of things I want, like momma's birthday and aunt Bertha's birthday. You know, on their records it shows Twiggs County.

HB: Yeah. Well. That must be it. They probably did live in there but they moved down down nearer to Montrose and our part.

JB: Oh, I see.

HB: Yeah. But, ah, that's too deep for me.

JB: Right.

HB: People was moving around, caught out there, caught at... So many people moved away from where we were and some moved in where every we were. You know, that kind of thing.

JB: Hmm. And did you guys, did you get married in Atlanta.

HB: To Ida?

JB: Yeah. Right.

HB: We were married here.

JB: Oh. You were married here. You're married in Detroit.

HB: Yeah.

JB: You just came up together.

HB: Yeah. Well, ah, after I was in Atlanta, after I was up there for a while, in Atlanta, then Ida came up. I don't know if Bertha came up, or Ida came up. 

Woman's voice: Ida.

HB: Yeah. She came up there and was living up there, that's all.

JB: Um-hum.

HB: And that's when your brother was born in Atlanta.

JB: Yeah. Brother was born in Atlanta, right.

HB: And ah, then we came here. But you see, I married her after we got here.

JB: Oh. I see.

HB: And then you were born.

JB: Right. I was born here.

HB: You were born here in Detroit.

JB: Right. 1927. I guess brother was born 1924.

HB: 27.

JB: 1927.

HB: That's right.

JB: August 25th. I guess brother was born in 1924.

HB: Yeah. That was just before I left Atlanta.

JB: 1924. May the 6th is his birthday. And so, so you guys came up but, but it wasn't, wasn't together. Just the children, just the two of us. Didn't one child die?

HB: No. It was just the two, that's all.

JB: Ok. Do you remember what year, so what year did you come here to Detroit, in what, about 1925, 26, something like that?

HB: 25. 

JB: When you came to Detroit?

HB: Yeah.

JB: About 1925.

HB: 1925.

JB: And then what? You came to work for Ford, or you just came to change towns, or...

HB: What's that?

JB: You came primarily to work or just to change towns?

HB: Yeah. I come here to work at Ford.

JB: Yeah. That's right.

HB: Finally I got on there, but not, not right off, not right off the rail. But I finally got to start working there.

JB: Right.

HB: But that's when I came here for.

JB: Yeah. That's... Now... if I try, I try to trace like from the Brazil side and... You don't remember what your mother's maiden name was.

HB: Hardy.

JB: Hardy.

HB: Her name was Mary Lou Hardy before she got married to my father.

JB: Oh. So therefore, her family tree would be the Hardys.

HB: That's right.

JB: Did you ever know any of the Hardys?

HB: I don't know of any other Hardy down there. That's getting back...

JB: Going way back.

HB: Getting back to where I can't remember too well.

JB: Yeah, right.

HB: So. But they was Hardys but I don't remember any more Hardys being down there. And there aren't any more. I remember my mother talking. Because my mother was born after the so called freedom.

JB: Oh.

HB: But her father, my grandfather, Charlie Hardy, he got a little taste, a little benefit...

JB: A slave.

HB: Because I think he was born just before the freedom.

JB: Ah.

HB: Whenever that is, you know, when you have slaves and freed all of them.

JB: So his name was Charlie, just like your father.

HB: His name was Charlie Hardy. And my mother's name, my mother's name Mary Lou, no my grandmother, that's Charlie Hardy's wife was named Jane Hardy.

JB: Oh. Ok.

HB: Yeah.

JB: Charlie. You remember quite a bit going back.

HB: I don't know how they come by that name Hardy. Because, from the best I can remember they, from the conflicts they had back then, they was McGriff. I don't know if my grandfather, I don't, I... If he was Charlie McGriff how did he come by Charlie Hardy? Maybe somebody named him Hardy bought him.

JB: He could have been a slave.

HB: Some of his relatives belong to a man named McGriff. Because during this time, that must have been just right around, or just before his birth or something. But they heard about it, they, you know, made such record that they had in their head. There are a set of people. Set of colored people, you know, one white, some white guy bought and take them away...

JB: Still was doing that then?

HB: No. That was my grandfather. He was born at the last part of that time or just past that. Because they talked and my mother remembered. They kept a record.

JB: I know. Right away.

HB: Somebody brought, somebody bought, I don't know if it was my grandfather's brother or what but some ancestor of mine, they bought that man and took him out west originally to Texas. And I don't know the county now but my mother did remember. She just had a good remembrance.

JB: A record.

HB: She heard them say that that's where them people...

JB: Was taking him.

HB: When they come from the boat, I don't know who, grandfather...

JB: Right, right.

HB: And took them over there.

JB: So that's how they trace it down. Because people had good memories then.

HB: Yeah. Well then after I got in the world and got to where I could read a little and write a little, she still remembered. She asked me to write a letter...

JB: To try to trace...

HB: She knew there was, it was some county in Texas. She didn't know the town, just the county in Texas where them people were. So she had me write a letter to whatever name that was, in that county in Texas. And she got a reply. She got an answer.

JB: Is that a fact?

HB: And ah, then they send pictures and letters. They used to correspond by letter. I was the one to instigate, and I was the one to read and write a little. So I read it an all that. But at that time, when these letters came, that cleared up. Because when we first wrote the county in Texas...

JB: Yeah, then you got the right address.

HB: Then we got the right address. It was Carson County. But at the time we got this Carson County, I pronounced it as Carters County. I was cutting them away now as Carters County.

JB: Close enough.

HB: But the reaction was Carson County. And if I'm not mistaken, if we didn't go to Carson County, we went close to that. Because we went through the state of Texas when I went out, down the, out west. And I thought about them people then. I said, "If I had known, that if I had known the address, I got along this far, I'd stop, go by, and say hello to them." Probably some of them still there.

JB: Some of them might still be tracing that.

HB: On top of the communications, they'd send pictures. And it was one of them pictures, a man looked just like my grandfather.

JB: Son of a gun.

HB: And another thing, they... the lord did it I guess, because they named their peoples over there something like the names we had over here. Because I have cousins named Calvin and they had somebody over there named Calvin. They named them the same as Alabama. It was just something similar.

JB: Probably we should have been starting on this a lot earlier because the time... I'm supposed to go to the west side, right around, I was supposed to have been over there a little after 10. But the next thing you know, you know, it... but you get in, you get involved and be a lot of interesting information, you know. We could probably still get together some other time. But what I want to do is maybe right here before I split, is to follow up, at least up to this day, you know, then, of course, you and mother had problems, you know, got divorced. And then you remarried. Do you recall what year that was?

HB: [Long pause] No. I wouldn't know exactly. But 1926 wouldn't miss it too far.

JB: Oh. No that's when you and mother got married.

HB: Yeah.

JB: Alright. 1926. No. I was saying after you got to Detroit and after you guys got married, then I guess about 1940 was it something that you were separated and divorced.

HB: Yeah.

JB: Then after you remarried, I was trying to think of the year of your second marriage.

HB: The second marriage...

JB: 1950s or 40s...

HB: was ah, 39, I believe...

JB: Oh. 1939.

HB: I believe is was 39. I think it was 39. Because Harold is 38 years old.

JB: Oh, he's only 38?

HB: Yeah. He was born on Christmas Day.

JB: Oh, he's a youngster.

HB: He was born 1940, Christmas Day.

JB: 1940. Oh.

HB: That's why I'm judging it must have been around...

JB: Oh, right. Oh, I see. He's just like Jesus Christ.

HB: Hmm?

JB: Jesus Christ, 19... born on Christmas Day. Son of a gun. That's Capricorn.

HB: Hmm?

JB: That's the Capricorn sign. Christmas.

HB: What's that?

JB: I mean, you know, a sign like say, you know, Virgo.

HB: I don't know.

JB: That stand for... yeah, 19, 20... I think he's on the verge of the sign... I think he had to be... No, that's right.

HB: You know, you know all the time. That's hard, hmm?

JB: Oh, well I was into that for a while, you know. I was studying that. That's what's called astrology, you know.

HB: Uh, huh.

JB: And I used to study that a little bit.

HB: Mmm...

JB: I see...

HB: Remember I told you about what they tell whatever the sign would be.

JB: Yeah, right, right, right. What is Bettie's birthday?

HB: I can't tell you that.

JB: She's younger though, isn't she?

HB: Yeah. She's the one here.

JB: And, but you don't remember.

HB: No. I don't know. She's a couple of years younger must have been.

JB: A couple of years. So she was around 1942. You're remembering well. I can't remember nothing myself. That's why I write stuff. That's why I use the tape recorder and write stuff down because I can't remember it.

HB: When somebody asks me, I tell them my birthday was 1895 September 6th. But when the birthday comes I can't even remember.

JB: Yeah, right.

HB: If somebody don't call me or write to me or something to remind me, I'll pass my own birthday up. And the same thing about whatever day it is. Like, for instance, Valentines. People already celebrating and all that. Well that will get me to know that Valentines is drawing near, or is here, or just past. Because it's all ready here. I just can't realize it.

JB: Right, right, right. We can get back, back in to it maybe one day because I'm going to be here until Sunday. I'm supposed to get together, I talked with Zoretta last night.

HB: You talked with Zoretta.

JB: Right.

HB: They live out at South Gate.

JB: South Gate or something like that. I may go by there Saturday. And so I got three, four more rounds to make that. I started to come by last night after I got back from uh, from the hospital, no, yeah, the hospital. And, you know, I think I talked to you last night a little bit.

HB: Yeah.

JB: I should have come on by about 8:00. I remember maybe we set a chat two or three hours, whatever. But still this is good information. It gave me a start and then maybe if I think of some other questions, you think of something else you think might be interesting, you know.

HB: Uh-huh.

Joe Brazil Interviews Al McKibbon

November 1, 1974

Joe Brazil: It appears to see if this is working. Probably. This tape is possibly bad. Or it is possible that the microphone or some other mechanism was not working right. 

We expect to have Mr. Al McKibbon. We made an announcement… I made an announcement about the review and everything so great. 

Let’s talk about some of the players that you have been listening to, some possibilities. 

These are lecture notes.

I was a little late today, but I think it was well worth our while. One of the finest musicians in the world happened to be touring in town with the Sammy Davis group agreed to come out and just chat with you. Something about the history of the music. I won’t go into it in too much detail because we want to try to use as much time as we can for him to lecture and discuss something about the music. This bass player, he was around during the Charlie Parker era, the Forties. He played with Dizzy Gillespie, “Lucky” Millinder, Coleman Hawkins, Count Basie, four or five years with George Shearing, many, many others. How about a nice hand for Mr. Al McKibbon?

[Applause]

We’re just going to kind of keep it loose. I don’t know if any of you might… he’s actually from Detroit and I feel kind of very close to him. Went to Cass Tech. What’s up?

Al McKibbon: Cass Tech was a school, only a high school, but very technical. They had a… they furnished instruments for as many as a hundred-piece orchestra plus concert band. The curriculum was that you must have academics plus whatever your major was in music. Also, four terms of piano was required. And of course within all that they had jazz orchestras and choruses and all that. I think it was one of the most complete high schools I’ve ever found in the world. 

A lot of people came out of the school, like Joe Brazil, Lucky Thompson, Milt Jackson, Howard McGee… Huh, I can’t think of many of them right now. Teddy Edwards. You name it. Quite a few. Wardell Gray. Maybe some people you don’t even remember. They were active back in the forties. Did you know any of them? [Laughter] You know Milt Jackson, right? 

So anyhow, I went to that school. Of course I had to study after that privately. I studied with Mr. [Herman] Reinshagen who was 36-year principal bass with the New York Philharmonic. I studied with him in California where I now live. 

After leaving Detroit I went to New York City with… well they needed musicians very bad at that time. It was war time so I got a lucky break with “Lucky” Millinder. And after that went to 52nd street and worked with Coleman Hawkins and Charlie Parker and all those people current at that time. 

And then after that I started to think about the money, so I went with Jazz at the Philharmonic. And after that it was Café Society downtown in New York City and made a European tour with Dizzy Gillespie. I played with Miles Davis’ first group, Thelonious Monk’s small group, and then I really went for the money and started working with George Shearing. People say, “How can you play with a small group like George Shearing after all the hard jazz you’ve been playing, versus with Dizzy’s big band where we would play Manteca and Things to Come, One Bass Hit, all those things. How can you play with a small group like George Shearing and be happy?” Well I said, “Because George Shearing, at that time, pays more money than all those other people.” 

I realized to go through Florence, Ohio and visit my brother and he said, “Al, you didn’t win the jazz poll this year.” I said, “Well, no I didn’t win the jazz poll but the winner of the jazz poll is not working. [Laughter] 

So, you know, I believe if you put a lot of time in whatever you’re studying, you should get paid for it. I think it’s a shame that the symphony orchestras of the day, make less money than I make playing behind Sammy Davis Jr. That’s ridiculous. There’s people spending a lifetime studying an instrument to become proficient and top of their fields and to have to go through rigorous auditions and keep up on current libraries and all that, and they make less money than I do. That’s a sad commentary on the state of the arts. 

In the meantime I’m trying to have fun and here I am so I would like to answer questions if you’d like to ask some. 

Male voice: Could you go into more detail about 52nd street and how it was down there.

AM: More detail? Well on 52nd street there was a block of clubs that were only basements of tenement houses converted into small one room nightclubs. They were pretty dingy, actually. But the people who owned them, knew of the wealth of jazz musicians in New York City at that time. It was war-time. And New York at the time was the mecca of all jazz musicians so they would just get… oh I remember it, one time there was Dizzy Gillespie and Charlie Parker at the 3 Deuces. Next door at the Downbeat was Billy Holliday, Art Tatum, and um… the group I was playing with I don’t remember. [Laughter] Next to that was the Spotlite club with Dizzy’s big band and there was always two or three groups in each so all the musicians would play their little set, then run next door and see what those people were doing. Of course, Dizzy Gillespie and Charlie Parker had everybody in front of their place. On the other side of the street they had a couple of Dixieland clubs that I wasn’t too thrilled about. They had the best Dixieland music. And one jazz spot that featured vocalists, usually. 

But 52nd street was kind of a way of life until the underworld move in and always moves musicians out. Whenever they come in with the pushers and whatever, then music goes out the back door because people become afraid to frequent the places with the freedom they used to exercise. So 52nd street had to go the way of all places. It just became notorious because of outsiders, not because of the music. The music was always excellent. 

Female voice: Do you have any remembrances of Billie Holiday?

AM: Ha. Yes. I knew Billie Holiday. I used to call her William because her name was Billie. Ahh… Billie Holiday was… ahh… quite… she was nothing like the movie. Nothing at all like the movie.

FV: How about her book?

AM: Her book? Well the book was fairly true. But, you know, there are so many things that are just better unsaid about a person’s personal life and she didn’t put all those things in the book. And the movie was just a vehicle for Diana Ross, more or less. Because Billie Holiday was a pretty plump lady with a hell of a feeling for jazz and very soulful and very hung up on narcotics, uh, bisexual, and a very strong lady. 

In fact she used to scare me to death, you know. She said uh, she could never remember my name, she said, “Hey, bass. I saw you last night with your missus. How come you didn’t speak? Are you afraid I’d get fresh with your missus?” Well, that’s the kind of lady she was. [Laughter] 

Yeah, you know? Well, you asked me. I’m just telling you. Nothing at all… [Laughter] Nothing at all like to movie. You know? In fact, uh, they were afraid to sell drinks whenever she was on stage. But when she started to sing you wouldn’t want a drink any how because she had the gardenia and her eyes almost closed, you know, and she would be singing those songs, you know, and she’d cast a spell. She’d really… 

The best way to listen to Billie Holiday is get the early records because they started to take advantage of her bad name when they put out the late records and her voice was through. She was done. Ankles were swollen, elbows, and she… Boy, she was just through. She was just hanging on by a thread. And, uh, the police used to just follow her around to shake her down, you know? Since she was kind of miserable near the end of her career. But one of the best singers ever.

Male voice: What’s the walking bass style?

AM: What is it?

MV: Yeah. What does it sound like?

AM: Well, ah… you know, as we call, what we call jazz, always gets labels that, ah, come from people that have nothing to do with it, as a rule, you know. So they, it’s just an old expression that when the bass was really playing a good strong rhythm they would say, “Hey, he’s walking.” It’s not really anything in particular. Just means to play a good rhythm with a good line.

MV: Where does the term, “Taking a ‘Boston’ come from?”

AM: You know, I don’t know. That’s a little too old for me. [laughter] But I have heard that. I heard it from older musicians. They say, uh, “Take a ‘Boston,’” which meant, “Play an ad lib solo.” But I think it was a very old expression that was used by earlier musicians.

MV: Two questions. Who is your inspiration and where is Sammy [Davis] playing? I haven’t heard anything about it.

AM: Sammy is at the Paramount Theater. We’re doing two shows tonight. Did one last night. Two tonight and then we’re going to Portland. 

And my inspirations came from quite a few people. In Detroit, my hometown, there was a dance every Monday night at the Graystone Ballroom that had all the big-name bands. And it was a big dance town and I was always very tall so I could get in when I was very young. I would stand in front of the bandstand, my mouth open, you know? 

And I saw, oh, gee, I saw Wellman Braud, used to be Duke Ellington’s original bass player. And I always admired his volume and tone. So I, kind of, listened to that. And I listened to Pops Foster. And then, after I learned to play like Walter Page, he was Count Basie’s original bass player, I heard Jimmy Blanton, and started to chop up my bass and throw it away. [laughter] Because he, ah, he… he was the first not to play a walking, as they call it, bass style. When it came to his solo, he would play like a horn. So when I first heard that, it turned me completely around. This young kid was only about, oh, 19 years old and already playing with Duke Ellington, you know. Featured with Duke Ellington. Well that’s quite a thing.

MV: Do you play a stand-up bass or an amplified bass?

AM: I play them both. Yeah, well, you know, these days, the stand-up bass is still being used but, if you want to make money, you have to play them both. And I really want to make some money, man. [laughter] I don’t want to be here forever. Really, you know. When it gets so that bass is heavy, well then… Like, I don’t stand and play anymore. I sit down. That’s a sign of something. I don’t know what it is. [laughter] 

MV: I believe you were a member of the Giants of Jazz group with the Jazz at the Philharmonic.

AM: Yeah.

MW: You were connected to… like, what’s the history behind how to get this young super group together?

AM: Well, they make you an offer you can’t refuse. [laughter] 

You see, the Giants of Jazz… I did a world tour three years ago, but, ah, Dizzy Gillespie, Sonny Stitt, Art Blakey, Thelonious Monk, Kai Winding – trombone, and we travelled around the world doing jazz concerts for George Wein, who’s, ah, the Newport Jazz outfit. And so, I live in Hollywood and I was just out there doing studio work because I don’t want to travel anymore. But he called me and asked me if I could make the tour and I said, “Well, I really don’t want to travel anymore, George.” And he said, “Well, I’ll pay you…” and I said, “You’ve got me.” [laughter] It was that simple. 

Same way with… Norman Granz used to be a disk jockey in Los Angeles before he started Jazz at the Philharmonic. And he started doing some concerts locally. And they became so popular that he became international. In fact, he lives in Switzerland now. With his bank roll that he’s made off us musicians. By paying us weakly – w-e-a-k-l-y, [laughter] he’s made his bank roll and has retired. But he’s been a great influence and supporter of jazz. I must say that about him.

MV: Don’t forget his new label, Pablo. Are you doing anything with that?

AM: No.

MV: Of the guys you played with, who did you enjoy playing with the most?

AM: Dizzy Gillespie.

MV: Why is that?

AM: Dizzy Gillespie? Well, when I was in his big band in 1948, we had people in the band like James Moody, and, oh, so many people who became stars after that. And Dizzy would come on the bandstand and he would warm up his horn. He would say, “What do you guys want to play?” Well, God! How can you not like working for a guy like that, you know? [laughter] He would say, “What do you guys want to play?” And then he would out play everybody. [laughter] 

Well, you know, Dizzy Gillespie, whoever named him was really farsighted because he is… We were playing a small band concert in Paris in, ah, matinee. And we were on a little stage with a curtain. So we played in the ensemble and after the ensemble was a saxophone solo, naturally. So Dizzy stepped behind the curtains, you know. 

And we kept playing and playing and playing. Say, “What the… why, why this guy doesn’t come out. Let’s finish the tune. So I looked back behind the curtain. He’s back there making love to some girl. [laughter] It’s time for him to play the chorus and go out. He’s back there smooching. [laughter] Come on! So that’s why, you know, I think I enjoyed working with him more than anyone. [laughter] Not because of the smooching. No. 

But, you know, ah, not only that, but Dizzy, is from Cheraw, um, North Carolina, South, South Carolina, and he, uh, he took the band once to that little school he used to go to. And when you see what a background he came from, you can appreciate what a tremendous talent this man has. He’s not only… You know, had Dizzy been another type of person, I think he would be a retired millionaire. He came along with an entire new style of trumpet playing, a new style of dressing, a new style of talking, acting… You know, people ask me, “What was that music you guys are playing?” He said, “Bebop.” Which means nothing. [laughter] But he, that’s just his style. He said, “Bebop,” so that was it. 

So he, uh… Right now, I think Dizzy Gillespie is one of the greatest stylists, trumpet players, innovators in jazz. And he has his ears completely open to anything that’s going on. Everything that’s going on. 

Except what Miles Davis is playing right now, which, I don’t know what that is either. [chuckles] But, uh, we saw Miles in Berlin and Dizzy said, “Miles, I wanna… I’d really like to understand what that is that you people are playing there. Can you explain it to me?” 

So Miles said, “Hit ‘C’ over there on the piano.” 

So Dizzy hit the “C”. 

“Bong.” 

He said, “Now forget about that!” [laughter] “Think about all those other notes you can play on top of that.” 

I said, “Well…” [laughter] 

You know, so, ha, I like all kinds of music but, uh, that’s a little strong. And when you have to have a whole bank of electronics behind you in order to play, I think that takes so much from it. That takes almost all of it for me because, you know, in the older days when you wanted to make a louder sound, you played harder. If you wanted to make a round sound, you used your best technique. If you wanted to make a quick sound, you did it yourself. 

But now, if you want to change anything, you flick a switch. So I think, after a while they’re going to program everything, you know? And you say, “Come to see the Moog synthesizer,” you know, and you just sit out there and the man presses a button and, you know, you’ll hear the music and see the picture and everything. And then we’re all going to be out of work. [laughter] It’s going to be all over. 

Oh, I want to say about rock music now. Ha. I like rock music, when it’s good, musical, and has more than one chord. You know? [laughter] Yeah, I like that. I like that. That’s very good, you know? Sometimes it has tremendous pulse and people can get out and dance, you know? And all that. I think that’s marvelous. And I think it’s all part of our heritage because it’s simple rock and roll or rhythm and blues or whatever. 

You know, I think that’s a, that’s kind of pitiful, too. I remember when they had jukeboxes, they had three columns of music. They had race music, which was rock and roll, and pop, and country. And now it’s all one. And anybody who can play one chord on a guitar can get a group together, the Three Monkeys, you know? [laughter] Yeah. And make five times as much money as a symphony orchestra. You know? I think that’s pretty bad.

JB: Is there any more questions?

[bell rings]

AM: Who are they? Aw, man, they got some, woo-hoo, Stan Clarke and Ron Carter and uh, Rufus Reid or Richard Davis, my friend, yeah.

MV: Let’s have a nice hand for Al McKibbon. 

[applause]

AM: Thank you.

JB: So you can catch him tonight, folks said you can catch him at the Paramount Theater with Sammy Davis’ group.

[talking as class leaves]

Female voice: Thank you for coming to talk to our class.

Joe Brazil Interviews McCoy Tyner

Joe Brazil with McCoy Tyner

November 22, 1971

McCoy Tyner: [Plays] That’s what I was saying. Lots of the things we used to play. We didn’t really discuss things. [Laughter] That’s why it’s so hard for me now to talk about it. We didn’t talk about music. We just played. [Laughter].

Joe Brazil: Would he by any chance run down the cycle of what he was doing? Or did he just do it?

MT: Except for Giant Steps. You know. He would say, “I’m playing the cycle of fifths.” After a while he just stopped playing that.

JB: What about some other stuff like Body and Soul?

MT: That was a set… he had written out certain chords, set chords, for that, alternate chords. He fit the cycle there, the cycle of fifths in there, that’s why they got in there.

JB: He kept developing. Like when you heard, what was the tune that was a big hit? Favorite Things. On the original record, and then I heard it in Seattle and you know [laughs] it had developed.

MT: Yeah. I understand. You see that wasn’t… We didn’t… See that’s what I’m talking about. That’s why it’s so hard. I can’t really… I don’t think it’s really important to explain it. Because you can’t. All I know is that my ear developed to a point, playing with him…

JB: Of course. I guess it’s like a reciprocal thing.

MT: Years ago, cats could say I’m breaking down this, breaking down that, playing this and playing that. It’s not like that.

JB: That’s what I was bringing up. I don’t think it could be defined.

MT: It can’t be defined. I don’t know. Maybe we should get that on tape.

JB: Ok. [Laughter. Tape turns off and on]

MT: …Miles and the flat five…Dizzy came out with that type of thing.

JB: Like Woody ‘n’ You?

MT: [plays chords from Woody ‘n’ You] And during that time there was a certain, everybody played a certain type of way.

JB: What if you’re teaching a cat? Like you say your teaching cats in New York. Say if you were teaching a cat that was maybe developed a little bit. What would be your approach of teaching him then?

MT: Well, you see, most of these kids aren’t taught.

JB: Beginners, yeah.

MT: Some of them weren’t but they didn’t know a lot of the fundamental things.

JB: Then it’s a basic thing – scales, see what notes, what finger to use.

MT: The only thing I could really do would be to maybe show them how certain chords can go against another. Something like that. And the scale relationship to the chords. So they wouldn’t have to be limited to playing within the chord, necessarily, but using the chord itself as a pedal to launch off on to something else.

JB: Well maybe we could benefit by something like that. [Laughter]

MT: [plays chords over a G pedal] Like if I play G minor… this is one thing I was doing when I was working with John, is that each note of the scale could be a chord.

JB: Right.

MT: You could use each note of the scale and develop as a chord or a sound. In G minor, for instance, you have [plays] and you’ve got B-flat minor [plays]. B-flat minor could be a complete sound within itself. The G is still there. But you know where you started from. The B-flat minor is within that sound. All the notes of that particular scale is within that particular sound. So you are actually not wrong. You could get a G. [plays] See, it’s still there. C minor. [plays]

JB: It’s like planting that sound and then doing whatever that sound fits here.

MT: Yeah.

JB: You plant that sound and then it remains.

MT: Right. It’s all the way through. It’s like a… it’s something to launch yourself off. You launch yourself off that. See it still gives you the freedom to play within that sound. Because like, there’s a thing, like, if you start off like Jones used to play, boom-chick-boom, he played time, ding-ding-dink-a-ding-dink-a-ding. Nowadays they don’t play like that. When you start a tune off you know where the time is. We were playing off the pulse. Like it sounded like we were playing a lot of things that at the centers. Sounded like we were playing with no time. Well, actually, there wasn’t no ding-ding-ding, we were playing off like a pulse. You don’t walk to the sound of your heartbeat. Your heart says, “boomp, boomp.” You don’t say, “boomp, boomp” trying to keep up with your heartbeat. Your heart is beating at a rhythm and you are walking at another rhythm. It’s the same thing with playing music. Just because you are playing in a key, that doesn’t mean that you are limited to the key itself. There are so many things that are related to that particular key. It’s like I was saying in G minor, you look at a standard tune, the way it resolves, the natural resolution would be maybe to go to C minor. The reason they resolve is because C is part of the key itself. So are other notes.

JB: In other words, one is not more important than the others.

MT: Yeah.

JB: Like tonic is more important, but not necessarily.

MT: Yeah. All over music, they have established a drone or a certain thing. A drone. Like in Africa, the rhythms are the tone, you may start at any particular tone, or any particular key, or drone, then they would take that and everything else would happen on top of that. And you can take it as far as you want to go. As long as you know where you came from.

JB: So, if you were practicing. What would you sit down and practice? I mean, like, scales, or make up a cycle and then try to develop it?

MT: I don’t practice like that anymore.

JB: What would you practice like?

MT: Scales. When I do practice, I practice scales. Theory is good up to a point. After that… I’m saying it’s good to know it, it’s good to know how a brother’s approach to improvising, but up to a certain point, it’s a matter of what you hear and how you can develop it. It’s a matter of emotions. It’s a matter of knowing form. I may be playing in a different key and all of the sudden decide to go, according to my feelings, to a chord that’s maybe related to that key or maybe one that’s not related to that key.

JB: You know, the point I’m getting at is maybe somebody else may be hearing these same things but they don’t have the capabilities of doing it. You might feel like you want to go there, and do something very different, but then you haven’t gotten yourself developed to go there. You know?

MT: Well, that’s the thing.

JB: So how’s the guy going to develop?

MT: If he can hear, he’ll do it. It’s a matter of really playing your instrument well enough so that you can do what you can hear.

JB: That goes back to that other thing.

MT: Yeah. There’s a certain part, an area of music you can’t explain.

Unknown voice: It’s like a transition.

MT: Our music has never been a Western concept of explaining music.

JB: Yeah. Right. Right. [Laughter]

MT: Our music has never been like that – explained. Even in Indian music, they take a raga, they have 700 scales, 700 ragas, one for the morning, one for the evening. Sounds pretty restrictive. But then they take that raga and they work with it. In between the notes and everything like that. And they improvise, like all black peoples of the earth always improvise their music. We never sit down and systemize everything where it came from. That’s why I say it’s moved out of the realm of… see, what’s happening, I think it’s wrong to make a study, I mean when I say wrong, I think for musicians, if you’re trying to approach it from a teaching aspect, that’s different. I think for musicians to take it and study it to the point wherein they say, “This brother broke this chord up here so that’s the way it’s supposed to go. I know it was broke up that way so I’m going to stick with that.” [Laughter]

JB: It’s lazy.

MT: When you reach a certain point, it’s you, it’s the individual, and the individual effort.

JB: Has there been a point in your life where you practiced like 8-10 hours a day?

MT: Unh, unh.

JB: I mean, like, 4-5 hours a day consistently over a couple of years?

MT: No

JB: 4-5 years? You’ve gone beyond that now.

MT: Yeah.

JB: I think for cats to get control of their instrument, they got to go through that certain period of learning the instrument.

MT: That’s the way it is. Learning the instrument. That’s the whole idea. Otherwise you will be restricted to just playing a certain area.

JB: You can’t do something. If you have the idea, you can’t go there.

MT: That’s the whole idea is to learn the instrument well enough to go wherever you can hear. And by playing an instrument every day and practicing, you’ll go all the places, but you’ll get tired. Your facility will evolve to the point where you just, you’re not going to be satisfied with just going right here, playing within 2 octaves. You want to play maybe 2 or 3 octaves or something like that. You want to try some other direction. That’s the reason why I think a man like Bird, I heard that he knew what he was doing but he didn’t know what he was doing. He was playing like that since he was young. Somebody said, “Where did Bird develop?” He was playing like that ever since he was young. So apparently, he heard that. You see? He heard that. So what cats did, they made a study of Bird.

JB: Somebody will come along after him.

MT: Right. What I’m trying to say is that with him it was a spontaneous thing. It’s like, “Well, God, I don’t know how you can figure out what he did.” [Laughter] I’m trying to figure out myself. How I can some kind of way get it across verbally and think it’s almost impossible. It’s almost impossible because music is a language that is hard to… you just can’t communicate everything. Some think it’s like a religious experience. You can’t tell some person, “Man, I felt like this when I was communicating with God.” It’s just something that you have to experience. You can give a person an idea. But then the actual thing is…

JB: But you’ll know when you get there.

MT: Yeah. You’ll know it. I think that’s just the way it is. Yeah. I was thinking about that, Joe. It’s really a different approach, man. I don’t know if it’s different. I just think that… I guess it is different. It’s a supreme power. How can you, ah?

JB: You just got to experience it.

MT: You don’t want a guy to be limited to just what you’ve shown him.

JB: Right.

MT: Just what you’re doing. You want him to have the freedom to express himself. He might know technically what you’re doing. He might know what that chord is. But why you did, why you played that chord…

JB: At that time.

MT: At that time. See what I mean. Or why he decided to maybe play a part of it and mix it up with something else. He can’t explain why he decided to do that. It’s not a theory of when I’m going to hit a bulls-eye, I was resolving from here. [Laughter] It’s a thing where you are more of less functioning on a disparate level.

JB: When you can get yourself up that far.

MT: It’s a different level of awareness.

Unknown voice: Yeah. Like I guess you explained it. I was fooling around with a basketball. You mentioned how those cats can stand back there an make a basket and don’t touch the rim. I don’t think you can explain how he does that. If you could just get out book, damn! [Laughter]

MT: Maybe it’s a level that he developed that’s beyond explanation. That makes him do that. Maybe he’s got a science. That’s what it is. Music is a science. It’s a science, man. Cats out there can play musical scientist in many respects. That’s why I think music has been used in the past, it has been used in many capacities, and it is a form of worship. And also, it has been used to, it’s being used now in hospitals, in the past it has been used for many other things. What we call magic now a days. I think music can be used to stimulate people to do anything.

JB: Yeah. We were talking about Yusef and the black scientists and everything. But I bring up an analogy, sometimes it’s like, when a black musician is playing and he is creating spontaneously, he must be doing some tremendous things with the mind in order to be able to be performing, and thinking, and communicating all at once. When a cat is reading, he is just taking it off the thing. But he’s doing this right on the moment and he’s creating, he’s composing, and playing. That must take a great deal of intelligence in order to be able to do that.

MT: Well that’s what it is. It is an intelligence that is not used voluntarily. He’s not thinking about it. That’s the reason why I think we are natural scientists. I was surprised at electric pop, you know, meaning something as simple as that, a man doesn’t do that right there, anything you can think of, them being scientists, creating the sciences that had a hand in bringing about music. I don’t think any of us who studied on it… but I think a lot of it is natural. I think we are endowed with more knowledge than we actually realize. Like they say, “You can’t stop it. Genius. It comes out.” But we don’t believe it. [Laughter] You see, that’s the thing. A man may have knowledge but if he’s constantly told, “You don’t have none” then, you know, that’s something you’ve got to believe.

Unknown voice: One of you here told me black people were scared of jazz.

MT: Well, it’s a matter of proportion because it’s true. I think people are afraid of truth any flavor, any kind of truth, if they are not used to it, being exposed to it. If they want to live a false life. If it’s not true you’re only guessing. We need better ways that will dominate.

Unknown voice: That’s weird.

MT: I think we’re going through [unintelligible] and I think that sometimes something that may not be alien to you but because you have been misinformed or miseducated will turn you into saying, “That’s strange. I don’t dig that.” Some people who are ready for it will immediately react and say, “Let’s run this up.” A lot of the time I think we don’t realize how living in a society where we have been programmed on just about every angle. I know you all realize, but you go down to the music, playing certain music that people in a certain thing are thinking. There is a study, I think, I don’t know what [unintelligible] There is a study where different tunes affect certain parts of the body. Certain tones affect certain points of the body. There’s a science there. That’s the reason why people respond to certain things because it has like a physical, not only it’s physical but it’s sort of a spiritual and physical effect on them at the same time, certain notes or certain ways of playing.

JB: There’s a book I got called The Mysticism of Sound.

MT: Yeah. I haven’t had a chance to read it yet. You can’t delve into anything without getting into the spiritual aspects. Without spirit, the body wouldn’t live. That’s the whole thing. That’s what the key is. That’s the part of Him that’s in us that keeps us alive. When that goes, we just go away. Back to dust. [Laughter]

JB: We got to do that TV show early, 7:30 in the morning.

[tape ends]

[audio tape of TV show]

McCoy plays Search for Peace

Interview

McCoy plays Peresina (partial)