Joe Brazil Interviews Al McKibbon

November 1, 1974

Joe Brazil: It appears to see if this is working. Probably. This tape is possibly bad. Or it is possible that the microphone or some other mechanism was not working right. 

We expect to have Mr. Al McKibbon. We made an announcement… I made an announcement about the review and everything so great. 

Let’s talk about some of the players that you have been listening to, some possibilities. 

These are lecture notes.

I was a little late today, but I think it was well worth our while. One of the finest musicians in the world happened to be touring in town with the Sammy Davis group agreed to come out and just chat with you. Something about the history of the music. I won’t go into it in too much detail because we want to try to use as much time as we can for him to lecture and discuss something about the music. This bass player, he was around during the Charlie Parker era, the Forties. He played with Dizzy Gillespie, “Lucky” Millinder, Coleman Hawkins, Count Basie, four or five years with George Shearing, many, many others. How about a nice hand for Mr. Al McKibbon?

[Applause]

We’re just going to kind of keep it loose. I don’t know if any of you might… he’s actually from Detroit and I feel kind of very close to him. Went to Cass Tech. What’s up?

Al McKibbon: Cass Tech was a school, only a high school, but very technical. They had a… they furnished instruments for as many as a hundred-piece orchestra plus concert band. The curriculum was that you must have academics plus whatever your major was in music. Also, four terms of piano was required. And of course within all that they had jazz orchestras and choruses and all that. I think it was one of the most complete high schools I’ve ever found in the world. 

A lot of people came out of the school, like Joe Brazil, Lucky Thompson, Milt Jackson, Howard McGee… Huh, I can’t think of many of them right now. Teddy Edwards. You name it. Quite a few. Wardell Gray. Maybe some people you don’t even remember. They were active back in the forties. Did you know any of them? [Laughter] You know Milt Jackson, right? 

So anyhow, I went to that school. Of course I had to study after that privately. I studied with Mr. [Herman] Reinshagen who was 36-year principal bass with the New York Philharmonic. I studied with him in California where I now live. 

After leaving Detroit I went to New York City with… well they needed musicians very bad at that time. It was war time so I got a lucky break with “Lucky” Millinder. And after that went to 52nd street and worked with Coleman Hawkins and Charlie Parker and all those people current at that time. 

And then after that I started to think about the money, so I went with Jazz at the Philharmonic. And after that it was Café Society downtown in New York City and made a European tour with Dizzy Gillespie. I played with Miles Davis’ first group, Thelonious Monk’s small group, and then I really went for the money and started working with George Shearing. People say, “How can you play with a small group like George Shearing after all the hard jazz you’ve been playing, versus with Dizzy’s big band where we would play Manteca and Things to Come, One Bass Hit, all those things. How can you play with a small group like George Shearing and be happy?” Well I said, “Because George Shearing, at that time, pays more money than all those other people.” 

I realized to go through Florence, Ohio and visit my brother and he said, “Al, you didn’t win the jazz poll this year.” I said, “Well, no I didn’t win the jazz poll but the winner of the jazz poll is not working. [Laughter] 

So, you know, I believe if you put a lot of time in whatever you’re studying, you should get paid for it. I think it’s a shame that the symphony orchestras of the day, make less money than I make playing behind Sammy Davis Jr. That’s ridiculous. There’s people spending a lifetime studying an instrument to become proficient and top of their fields and to have to go through rigorous auditions and keep up on current libraries and all that, and they make less money than I do. That’s a sad commentary on the state of the arts. 

In the meantime I’m trying to have fun and here I am so I would like to answer questions if you’d like to ask some. 

Male voice: Could you go into more detail about 52nd street and how it was down there.

AM: More detail? Well on 52nd street there was a block of clubs that were only basements of tenement houses converted into small one room nightclubs. They were pretty dingy, actually. But the people who owned them, knew of the wealth of jazz musicians in New York City at that time. It was war-time. And New York at the time was the mecca of all jazz musicians so they would just get… oh I remember it, one time there was Dizzy Gillespie and Charlie Parker at the 3 Deuces. Next door at the Downbeat was Billy Holliday, Art Tatum, and um… the group I was playing with I don’t remember. [Laughter] Next to that was the Spotlite club with Dizzy’s big band and there was always two or three groups in each so all the musicians would play their little set, then run next door and see what those people were doing. Of course, Dizzy Gillespie and Charlie Parker had everybody in front of their place. On the other side of the street they had a couple of Dixieland clubs that I wasn’t too thrilled about. They had the best Dixieland music. And one jazz spot that featured vocalists, usually. 

But 52nd street was kind of a way of life until the underworld move in and always moves musicians out. Whenever they come in with the pushers and whatever, then music goes out the back door because people become afraid to frequent the places with the freedom they used to exercise. So 52nd street had to go the way of all places. It just became notorious because of outsiders, not because of the music. The music was always excellent. 

Female voice: Do you have any remembrances of Billie Holiday?

AM: Ha. Yes. I knew Billie Holiday. I used to call her William because her name was Billie. Ahh… Billie Holiday was… ahh… quite… she was nothing like the movie. Nothing at all like the movie.

FV: How about her book?

AM: Her book? Well the book was fairly true. But, you know, there are so many things that are just better unsaid about a person’s personal life and she didn’t put all those things in the book. And the movie was just a vehicle for Diana Ross, more or less. Because Billie Holiday was a pretty plump lady with a hell of a feeling for jazz and very soulful and very hung up on narcotics, uh, bisexual, and a very strong lady. 

In fact she used to scare me to death, you know. She said uh, she could never remember my name, she said, “Hey, bass. I saw you last night with your missus. How come you didn’t speak? Are you afraid I’d get fresh with your missus?” Well, that’s the kind of lady she was. [Laughter] 

Yeah, you know? Well, you asked me. I’m just telling you. Nothing at all… [Laughter] Nothing at all like to movie. You know? In fact, uh, they were afraid to sell drinks whenever she was on stage. But when she started to sing you wouldn’t want a drink any how because she had the gardenia and her eyes almost closed, you know, and she would be singing those songs, you know, and she’d cast a spell. She’d really… 

The best way to listen to Billie Holiday is get the early records because they started to take advantage of her bad name when they put out the late records and her voice was through. She was done. Ankles were swollen, elbows, and she… Boy, she was just through. She was just hanging on by a thread. And, uh, the police used to just follow her around to shake her down, you know? Since she was kind of miserable near the end of her career. But one of the best singers ever.

Male voice: What’s the walking bass style?

AM: What is it?

MV: Yeah. What does it sound like?

AM: Well, ah… you know, as we call, what we call jazz, always gets labels that, ah, come from people that have nothing to do with it, as a rule, you know. So they, it’s just an old expression that when the bass was really playing a good strong rhythm they would say, “Hey, he’s walking.” It’s not really anything in particular. Just means to play a good rhythm with a good line.

MV: Where does the term, “Taking a ‘Boston’ come from?”

AM: You know, I don’t know. That’s a little too old for me. [laughter] But I have heard that. I heard it from older musicians. They say, uh, “Take a ‘Boston,’” which meant, “Play an ad lib solo.” But I think it was a very old expression that was used by earlier musicians.

MV: Two questions. Who is your inspiration and where is Sammy [Davis] playing? I haven’t heard anything about it.

AM: Sammy is at the Paramount Theater. We’re doing two shows tonight. Did one last night. Two tonight and then we’re going to Portland. 

And my inspirations came from quite a few people. In Detroit, my hometown, there was a dance every Monday night at the Graystone Ballroom that had all the big-name bands. And it was a big dance town and I was always very tall so I could get in when I was very young. I would stand in front of the bandstand, my mouth open, you know? 

And I saw, oh, gee, I saw Wellman Braud, used to be Duke Ellington’s original bass player. And I always admired his volume and tone. So I, kind of, listened to that. And I listened to Pops Foster. And then, after I learned to play like Walter Page, he was Count Basie’s original bass player, I heard Jimmy Blanton, and started to chop up my bass and throw it away. [laughter] Because he, ah, he… he was the first not to play a walking, as they call it, bass style. When it came to his solo, he would play like a horn. So when I first heard that, it turned me completely around. This young kid was only about, oh, 19 years old and already playing with Duke Ellington, you know. Featured with Duke Ellington. Well that’s quite a thing.

MV: Do you play a stand-up bass or an amplified bass?

AM: I play them both. Yeah, well, you know, these days, the stand-up bass is still being used but, if you want to make money, you have to play them both. And I really want to make some money, man. [laughter] I don’t want to be here forever. Really, you know. When it gets so that bass is heavy, well then… Like, I don’t stand and play anymore. I sit down. That’s a sign of something. I don’t know what it is. [laughter] 

MV: I believe you were a member of the Giants of Jazz group with the Jazz at the Philharmonic.

AM: Yeah.

MW: You were connected to… like, what’s the history behind how to get this young super group together?

AM: Well, they make you an offer you can’t refuse. [laughter] 

You see, the Giants of Jazz… I did a world tour three years ago, but, ah, Dizzy Gillespie, Sonny Stitt, Art Blakey, Thelonious Monk, Kai Winding – trombone, and we travelled around the world doing jazz concerts for George Wein, who’s, ah, the Newport Jazz outfit. And so, I live in Hollywood and I was just out there doing studio work because I don’t want to travel anymore. But he called me and asked me if I could make the tour and I said, “Well, I really don’t want to travel anymore, George.” And he said, “Well, I’ll pay you…” and I said, “You’ve got me.” [laughter] It was that simple. 

Same way with… Norman Granz used to be a disk jockey in Los Angeles before he started Jazz at the Philharmonic. And he started doing some concerts locally. And they became so popular that he became international. In fact, he lives in Switzerland now. With his bank roll that he’s made off us musicians. By paying us weakly – w-e-a-k-l-y, [laughter] he’s made his bank roll and has retired. But he’s been a great influence and supporter of jazz. I must say that about him.

MV: Don’t forget his new label, Pablo. Are you doing anything with that?

AM: No.

MV: Of the guys you played with, who did you enjoy playing with the most?

AM: Dizzy Gillespie.

MV: Why is that?

AM: Dizzy Gillespie? Well, when I was in his big band in 1948, we had people in the band like James Moody, and, oh, so many people who became stars after that. And Dizzy would come on the bandstand and he would warm up his horn. He would say, “What do you guys want to play?” Well, God! How can you not like working for a guy like that, you know? [laughter] He would say, “What do you guys want to play?” And then he would out play everybody. [laughter] 

Well, you know, Dizzy Gillespie, whoever named him was really farsighted because he is… We were playing a small band concert in Paris in, ah, matinee. And we were on a little stage with a curtain. So we played in the ensemble and after the ensemble was a saxophone solo, naturally. So Dizzy stepped behind the curtains, you know. 

And we kept playing and playing and playing. Say, “What the… why, why this guy doesn’t come out. Let’s finish the tune. So I looked back behind the curtain. He’s back there making love to some girl. [laughter] It’s time for him to play the chorus and go out. He’s back there smooching. [laughter] Come on! So that’s why, you know, I think I enjoyed working with him more than anyone. [laughter] Not because of the smooching. No. 

But, you know, ah, not only that, but Dizzy, is from Cheraw, um, North Carolina, South, South Carolina, and he, uh, he took the band once to that little school he used to go to. And when you see what a background he came from, you can appreciate what a tremendous talent this man has. He’s not only… You know, had Dizzy been another type of person, I think he would be a retired millionaire. He came along with an entire new style of trumpet playing, a new style of dressing, a new style of talking, acting… You know, people ask me, “What was that music you guys are playing?” He said, “Bebop.” Which means nothing. [laughter] But he, that’s just his style. He said, “Bebop,” so that was it. 

So he, uh… Right now, I think Dizzy Gillespie is one of the greatest stylists, trumpet players, innovators in jazz. And he has his ears completely open to anything that’s going on. Everything that’s going on. 

Except what Miles Davis is playing right now, which, I don’t know what that is either. [chuckles] But, uh, we saw Miles in Berlin and Dizzy said, “Miles, I wanna… I’d really like to understand what that is that you people are playing there. Can you explain it to me?” 

So Miles said, “Hit ‘C’ over there on the piano.” 

So Dizzy hit the “C”. 

“Bong.” 

He said, “Now forget about that!” [laughter] “Think about all those other notes you can play on top of that.” 

I said, “Well…” [laughter] 

You know, so, ha, I like all kinds of music but, uh, that’s a little strong. And when you have to have a whole bank of electronics behind you in order to play, I think that takes so much from it. That takes almost all of it for me because, you know, in the older days when you wanted to make a louder sound, you played harder. If you wanted to make a round sound, you used your best technique. If you wanted to make a quick sound, you did it yourself. 

But now, if you want to change anything, you flick a switch. So I think, after a while they’re going to program everything, you know? And you say, “Come to see the Moog synthesizer,” you know, and you just sit out there and the man presses a button and, you know, you’ll hear the music and see the picture and everything. And then we’re all going to be out of work. [laughter] It’s going to be all over. 

Oh, I want to say about rock music now. Ha. I like rock music, when it’s good, musical, and has more than one chord. You know? [laughter] Yeah, I like that. I like that. That’s very good, you know? Sometimes it has tremendous pulse and people can get out and dance, you know? And all that. I think that’s marvelous. And I think it’s all part of our heritage because it’s simple rock and roll or rhythm and blues or whatever. 

You know, I think that’s a, that’s kind of pitiful, too. I remember when they had jukeboxes, they had three columns of music. They had race music, which was rock and roll, and pop, and country. And now it’s all one. And anybody who can play one chord on a guitar can get a group together, the Three Monkeys, you know? [laughter] Yeah. And make five times as much money as a symphony orchestra. You know? I think that’s pretty bad.

JB: Is there any more questions?

[bell rings]

AM: Who are they? Aw, man, they got some, woo-hoo, Stan Clarke and Ron Carter and uh, Rufus Reid or Richard Davis, my friend, yeah.

MV: Let’s have a nice hand for Al McKibbon. 

[applause]

AM: Thank you.

JB: So you can catch him tonight, folks said you can catch him at the Paramount Theater with Sammy Davis’ group.

[talking as class leaves]

Female voice: Thank you for coming to talk to our class.